Gary, I ignited a lively discussion of this at the final media golf classic we both attended in Phoenix at Wi-ko-pa a few years back. My position was that Jack was the game's greatest golfer overall, but that in his prime and for a period of time, Tiger was the most dominant player to have ever played the game.
I wasn’t aware of this book so really glad you posted this. The history of golf is its primary appeal to me. Frankly this is a book I’d like to write myself.
I see lists like this all the time and my knee jerk reaction is always the same—Palmer too high, Snead too low. Mickelson is almost certainly top 10 also. If he’d ever got that Open I would seriously put him 5th.
13 majors in seven years, then he retired. And he didn't play golf full time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. "He didn't have any serious competition." (Hagen and Sarazen and other really great golfers you've never heard of unless you've studied golf history.)
"He played crappy golf courses and crappy equipment." (He played with the equipment that was available to him, and if you're going to knock Jones on this, then you have to knock Nicklaus.)
"He never won the PGA or the Masters." (They wouldn't let him play the PGA because he wasn't a pro. I'll bet if an amateur won the US Open & the Open Championship in a season, he'd be invited to the PGA on a 'special exemption.' And he INVENTED the Masters after he finished playing.)
Is it a stretch? Yes. Because you simply cannot objectively compare golfers from different eras to each other, you have to put in some wiggle factor. Which contaminates the results with your own bigotry. (And one of those is usually that the players of the present time are always greater than those of the past.)
For my mind, there are actually 6 male goats.
Young Tom Morris
Harry Vardon
Bob Jones
Ben Hogan
Jack Nicklaus
Tiger Woods
Each of those continually won more Championships in their time than any other golfer of that era. I really don’t need to say that Jones was better than Nicklaus was better than Vardon, etc, To me they’re all equal.
I couldn’t agree with you more, Bill. They are precisely the 6 golfers on my short list. Each was not only the best of his era but each moved the needle.
I have questions regarding some of the inclusions and rankings. Harrington & Langer in the 90s - way to low. Ditto - Old Tom.
Also, it’s not clear the point values employed, especially for subjective measures.
Still, I can’t argue with rewarding golfers who actually fought in combat (Armour, Ball & Mangrum) and those who overcame serious medical issues (Hogan, Vardon, BDZ, Littler).
Moreover, placing two of my ATFs - John Ball (23) and Mickey Wright (6) - among the top 25 forgives many sins.
Including Freddie Tait would’ve been awesome.
•2 time Amateur Champion
•Participant in the greatest match ever (ag. John Ball in 1899 Amateur at Prestwick)
•Played bagpipes after a victory
•Member of the 42nd Infantry Regiment (the Black Watch)
•Killed in the Boer War
•Master of the dog “Nails” who accompanied him in competition
Gary, I ignited a lively discussion of this at the final media golf classic we both attended in Phoenix at Wi-ko-pa a few years back. My position was that Jack was the game's greatest golfer overall, but that in his prime and for a period of time, Tiger was the most dominant player to have ever played the game.
I wasn’t aware of this book so really glad you posted this. The history of golf is its primary appeal to me. Frankly this is a book I’d like to write myself.
I see lists like this all the time and my knee jerk reaction is always the same—Palmer too high, Snead too low. Mickelson is almost certainly top 10 also. If he’d ever got that Open I would seriously put him 5th.
Who's the GOAT? Bob Jones.
13 majors in seven years, then he retired. And he didn't play golf full time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. "He didn't have any serious competition." (Hagen and Sarazen and other really great golfers you've never heard of unless you've studied golf history.)
"He played crappy golf courses and crappy equipment." (He played with the equipment that was available to him, and if you're going to knock Jones on this, then you have to knock Nicklaus.)
"He never won the PGA or the Masters." (They wouldn't let him play the PGA because he wasn't a pro. I'll bet if an amateur won the US Open & the Open Championship in a season, he'd be invited to the PGA on a 'special exemption.' And he INVENTED the Masters after he finished playing.)
Is it a stretch? Yes. Because you simply cannot objectively compare golfers from different eras to each other, you have to put in some wiggle factor. Which contaminates the results with your own bigotry. (And one of those is usually that the players of the present time are always greater than those of the past.)
For my mind, there are actually 6 male goats.
Young Tom Morris
Harry Vardon
Bob Jones
Ben Hogan
Jack Nicklaus
Tiger Woods
Each of those continually won more Championships in their time than any other golfer of that era. I really don’t need to say that Jones was better than Nicklaus was better than Vardon, etc, To me they’re all equal.
I couldn’t agree with you more, Bill. They are precisely the 6 golfers on my short list. Each was not only the best of his era but each moved the needle.
Fun read!
I have questions regarding some of the inclusions and rankings. Harrington & Langer in the 90s - way to low. Ditto - Old Tom.
Also, it’s not clear the point values employed, especially for subjective measures.
Still, I can’t argue with rewarding golfers who actually fought in combat (Armour, Ball & Mangrum) and those who overcame serious medical issues (Hogan, Vardon, BDZ, Littler).
Moreover, placing two of my ATFs - John Ball (23) and Mickey Wright (6) - among the top 25 forgives many sins.
Including Freddie Tait would’ve been awesome.
•2 time Amateur Champion
•Participant in the greatest match ever (ag. John Ball in 1899 Amateur at Prestwick)
•Played bagpipes after a victory
•Member of the 42nd Infantry Regiment (the Black Watch)
•Killed in the Boer War
•Master of the dog “Nails” who accompanied him in competition
Different time, different competition, different equipment. Different course conditions.